Season 3, Episode 4: Let's Talk COPAA Conference 2021 with Guest Speak and CEO of COPAA Denise Marshall

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to the podcast. Let's talk sped law, a podcast dedicated to discussing special education rights of children with disabilities. I'm your host and special education attorney. Jeff forte. Now let's talk sped law. Hi, everyone.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Welcome to another episode of let's talk sped law today on the show we have Denise Marshall, who is the chief executive officer of Copa. Now Copa for those that don't know stands for the council of parent advocates and attorneys, and Denise has been the, uh, chief executive officer for Copa for the last 16 years. Uh, I believe since, since 2005, uh, Denise is a graduate of John Hopkins university where she obtained her. Master's in applied behavioral science and she has over 40 years of experience in the fields of, in the field of disability and a variety of support management and advocacy, uh, capacities. She has a wealth of knowledge in nonprofit association management, and truly has pioneered and led Copa on a national level to significant achievements and Heights. Um, Denise, welcome. Welcome to the show. It's so great to have you on, and I can't wait to jump into everything here with you.

Speaker 3: 1:26

Well, thanks for having me today, Jeff, and for such a nice introduction.

Speaker 2: 1:31

So Denise let's first start with what Copa is, right? Let's let's talk about what its mission is. Um, the, the, the growth, the tremendous growth that COPAS had on a national organization, um, keeping in mind, you know, that a lot of parents that are listening to the let's talk sped law podcast are really kind of jumping into this, uh, you know, like a fire hose and just absorbing as much information as they can.

Speaker 3: 2:02

Sure. Yeah. Well, Copa is, um, a national organization, as you said, we have 2,600 members, um, in all 50 States DC and several of the territories. And so we really are. We call ourselves a peer to peer network. We have, um, parents as members, attorneys, advocates, related service personnel, and anyone who's really focused on, uh, this protecting the civil and legal rights of students with disabilities and their families. So what that means is that our members are, you know, are there, whether it's to help out a fellow family to, uh, be an advocate and help support a family, to be an attorney and representative family and anyone who's really struggling with what their child needs in school. That's what our members focus on. And, uh, we grown, as you said, we started off when I first came, we had a couple hundred members, so we have grown exponentially, um, both in number and as well as in reach, uh, we work on all kinds of things at the federal level, uh, policy, uh, practice issues. Um, we're in the courts at every level, um, you know, um, and have won many cases, uh, at the Supreme court level, as well as the federal court level and state courts of appeals. So one of our, uh, passport members, Susan, Bruce used to always say COPAS everywhere. The voice of students with disabilities needs to be heard. And I, and I think that sums it up.

Speaker 2: 3:43

Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, so, so for parents that are, are, are listening here, Copa, which stands for council of parents, advocates and attorneys, uh, truly is just an, uh, an amazing organization on a national level. Um, I would encourage everyone to go to their website, Copa C O P a.org, and there, you're going to find a wealth of information and a lot of committees that you could join and sign up to. Right. You could start volunteering today. So, so let's talk about some of the committees and subcommittees that Copa has. Um, you know, you, you mentioned that Copa files a lot of Abacus briefs through your legal director, saline, Amazon in practically every judicial court, every forum, um, across the state, including, uh, at the U S Supreme court. Um, what, what type of Amicus briefs have you has Copa recently filed and been successful in?

Speaker 3: 4:48

Well, we, we file on all kinds of issues, things that may become precedent setting. So some of the issues that we've worked on are the right of parents to be able to bring suit under the ITA, as well as under five Oh four or the ADA, what parents really understand that students and parents have rights under all the federal laws and that they don't need to be limited to just the Ida, which, uh, sometimes courts feel that parents need to first go through the Ida. And that's not always, uh, true depending on which law would best protect their child or them. Right.

Speaker 2: 5:34

Right. Now let's talk about the various membership levels, right? Because attorneys can join advocates, join professionals can join and parents can join. Right. So what, what, what are the, um, what, what are some of the benefits for parents to be joining?

Speaker 3: 5:58

Well, definitely again, for any numb, any level of, of a member, it's that connection with each other? We are the only organization that I know that has that mix of members who are all focused on the parents side. We don't have any one who works for, you know, full-time for a school district or represent school districts on our, in our membership or on our discussion boards. Um, so just that ability to speak freely, get advice, learn from other folks who are sharing information is one very valuable, left, uh, benefit. Another is, um, you know, discounted rates to, uh, uh, our conferences and trainings. In fact, we have, uh, our, uh, annual summit coming up in March while the end of February and March and this year, uh, thanks to, um, many of our generous sponsors. It's only$40 for parents to attend if, if they're members as well. And the parent membership fee is typically$50, um, for a parent or family member, or if you're part of the military it's twenty-five dollars. Um, or if it's that's cost prohibitive, anyone can ask for a scholarship, um, at the$5 levels. So, um, being able to really that's, you know, summit is chock-full of sessions, almost 60 different sessions on different topics that will be up for six months, uh, afterwards where folks can access the resources. And then lastly, I would say that, you know, just the, the wealth of information on our site, in the parent community, as well as our general, um, library are great resources. And one of the things, for example, that our parent committee worked on was a, um, you know, a 10 part series on, you know, just the whole IEP cycle and process and what you're supposed to do at each step and what best practices. And, uh, that's been translated also into Spanish. So, um, you know, we really try to give people the tools and the information they need either to advocate for themselves or for their child, or to reach out and, um, access one of our members through our directory. So if they feel like they need some representation or further support,

Speaker 2: 8:31

Right? So for$50, or if you're a military member, a$25 parent costs, I mean, that is just an amazing price point. Um, and then if parents are unable to afford that there, there are some, uh, there's some financial aid where they could just simply join for a nominal fee of$5. Um, and the information alone just from that is, is really going to help parents set their child up for success. But you did bring up a good point and I really want to get into, into, into this with you. And that is this year's Copa conference, um, is virtual and, and in going virtual, it's probably, you know, uh, obviously as a result of COVID, but, um, the benefits of being able to now join Copa and then also go to this conference really is just, um, it's very cost-effective for a lot of parents. Um, now is this the first time Copa has ever done a full conference? Virtual?

Speaker 3: 9:40

Yeah, typically we meet each March in, uh, you know, one region of the country or another, um, and have a, uh, person in-person conference, but with COVID this year, we are able to do that. Um, so while we're on one hand, sad about that, we're, we're excited about the opportunity to, as you said, bring the Copa conference into people's living rooms and for, for families that's free now for$40 to get access to four days of, um, sessions, you know, there's 36 live sessions, 15 prerecorded sessions, networking sessions, um, all kinds of handouts and materials, all of which will also be taped. So if you, if you're not able to, you know, attend on the weekend the first weekend in March for the entire then, or for any of it, you can still register. And, um, all of that will be available as kind of like an on demand, uh, place for you to, um, access for six months following. So I really, and she said, there's no travel costs, there's no hotel costs, or you don't have to find childcare. You know what I mean? It's, it's really, uh, an opportunity. Um, and we hope that it will allow more people to attend and, you know, then we typically get, and we get, you know, 700 people at our conferences. So we're hoping to have a big crowd.

Speaker 2: 11:12

Um, the last conference that I went to in-person was actually the 2020 Copa conference. And that was when I radically, um, you know, it's, it's held every, it's held every March. And ironically, that is when COVID was just starting to kind of systemically percolate here in the U S and I remember, you know, some folks debating whether they should leave the conference early, um, but it was a successful conference. And then right after that way up the entire had into lockdown.

Speaker 3: 11:50

I know it was really amazed him, as you said, we, we not only had a great event, we had a lot of folks there and, you know, one of the things that people talk about all the time is the importance of coming together with other families and practitioners who are really struggling the way that they are. This is a hard and lonely struggle some days. Um, and so one of the things that I think is it's like a homecoming when you come to Copa and a lot of people feel refreshed and rejuvenated. And so, you know, people, people were going to be there if they could, and then they weren't prohibited medically from coming in. And, uh, so, so we had a full crowd and, and everybody went home. And as you said, the world shut down literally the day after I think we all got home and we held our breasts for, uh, several weeks, you know, trying and making sure everybody seemed to be safe and healthy still. And they were so, um, yeah, it's, it's a little bit surreal how that happened.

Speaker 2: 12:57

Yeah. I mean, I, I just, I remember all of us kind of talking like, Oh, this isn't gonna really amount to anything. And then it was a humbling experience to say the least. Um, and now we hear a whole nother year later, um, essentially where we haven't been able to catch up in person, but, um, th th the 2021 annual Copa conferences now, as of the date of this podcast recording, this is going to air next week is about 20, 22 days away. Right. Um, and the, one of the benefits at least of, of, of holding it virtual is that we're able to now get even more parents involved. Um, like you said, and if you, if you have childcare issues where you can watch it at your leisure, when your kids go to sleep, um, so, you know, let's, let's kind of talk a bit about the number of programs and tracks that there are, um, the, the, the schedule that's now up on, on copa.org. Um, and you know, what, what some of the programs are that are going to be beneficial, uh, to parents, you know?

Speaker 3: 14:13

Sure. Yeah. Well, we have, first of all, um, uh, today, you know, kind of skills training ahead of, um, the main conference and that, uh, advocacy one Oh one, I think for, for parents is probably the best one to go to. Um, and it really gets, you know, kind of walks you through again, that, that IEP process and, um, you know, the law and how, and what to do at each step and really some, some techniques and, um, practices that will help, you know, folks be successful hopefully in, during the IEP process. Um, and so that's the first one. And then from there, uh, starting on Thursday, March 4th, we have, uh, every day, uh, third, Thursday through Sunday from, um, 12 to about six, I believe we have different, uh, events, either networking events. So we have the opening keynote session this year with Corey Hamilton[inaudible] is our general session speaker. Um, and we have, uh, invited Dr. Cardona from, uh, hails from Connecticut as you do, um, to also come, uh, speak to us. And, and he's interested in doing that informally yesterday, formerly be, uh, appointed by that time, which we hope. Um, and so, uh, you know, Corey, it really focuses on, uh, issues of equity and really trying to look at some of those both big picture issues that, that, you know, we, we need to pay attention to around, uh, for equity, uh, in terms of, you know, how students have, or do they have, uh, equal access to a quality education? And, you know, that could, that could mean anything from, you know, access to a gifted and talented session, you know, uh, courses or back to the simplest of being able to remain in school all day, if they happen to have some challenging behaviors. So she's going to really dive down into that issue. Um, and then on Saturday, uh, we have three different breakout sessions. Each one is, has six choices. Um, and as I said, you can choose to go to one session live, um, each of those three times. Um, but then the other sessions will be, um, recorded. So, and the topics range from, you know, working, if you happen to have a child who's in foster care, for example, um, who is your child or your, I know you and your wife were doing a session, you slammed a, um, on behavioral issues. Is that correct this year? That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me the name of that session. Again,

Speaker 2: 17:16

We're going to be, uh, my wife, uh, Dr. Solani forte, who's a board certified behavior analyst. We're going to be presenting on, um, advocating for children with behavioral challenges, ensuring an appropriate IEP, FBA and BIP. One of the programs. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 17:37

Yeah. And we appreciate that. And I think that's, you know, that's one of the other hallmarks of Copa, as I said, it's a peer to peer with network. So we have other folks who have, who work, you know, and either do this work, support their own children or combination thereof. A lot of our, you know, over, uh, 80% of our members are also family members. So it's really a knowledgeable, skilled and committed group. Um, some of the other topics are things like, uh, COVID-19 and compensatory education, or, um, gosh, I'm drawing a blank now, but urinate, you name it, uh, transition issues, um, assessment, how to know how to get, uh, a independent education evaluation for your child. Um, how to understand the assessments

Speaker 2: 18:31

I, that I like, uh, Denise about the wealth and scope of, of information that's presented is you could really be at any level of understanding, um, as either a parent advocate or attorney, you know, all experience levels are welcomed. You know, if this is your first conference, you know, you don't need to have background as a parent in order to kind of just jump right in, you know, um, some of the conferences in the past, we'll go through, you know, you know, simple things like understanding and assessment, understanding what the bell curve means and, you know, psychometric conversion tables and where your child may fall into, um, with their standard assessment scores and how to understand them versus, well, you know, now we, we disagree with the results of this assessment and how do we go about securing an independent one at public school district expense, um, right down to, you know, you know, litigation strategies if you're in, if you're in a due process hearing. So it really just runs the whole course as far as, um, the level of offerings that, that, that cope that the Copa conference has.

Speaker 3: 19:51

Yes. I mean, as you said, I mean, and, you know, sometimes in this area of law, some parents do end up representing themselves pro se or, you know, not, not, not hiring an advocate or an attorney. And so, as you say, they're welcome to go to any of the sessions and the range of, of topics, um, for, for any parent, um, or for those who, who are interested in, uh, representing themselves or for attorneys who practice in this, uh, field or as special education advocates, um, you know, practice in this field, things like, uh, succeeding in the manifestation, determination review, um, how to, how to support a student that, uh, LGBTQ student, um, to exhaust or not to exhaust under the Ida. Um, I mean, as I said, a lot and a lot of, uh, Corona topics, um, how to revise an IEP, you know, during the Corona, uh, time period, um, the importance of data and assessments. Um, and as I said earlier, uh, social non-comp ed, so, um, it's hard to list them all, but, but there's a wealth of information, but you can go to, to copa.org, as Jeff said, and, and look at the, um, two 20, 21 conference and then click on the schedule and new, you can see, uh, all the details there.

Speaker 2: 21:23

Right. Great. Great. So, um, what, what's the mission? What's the agenda, if you will, for, for this year, for the 2020 year for Copa?

Speaker 3: 21:34

Yeah, well, you know, again, I think we're still, there's several different things that we're working on actively, uh, all to promote equity and to protect rights. And one of them is certainly to get more resources to the districts, um, and to fully fund the Ida, uh, through congressional action. Um, but also, uh, through some of the, you know, COVID relief packages, um, that have come out a lot of times a law or all of them have had funds for education, but that they're not necessarily designated in any way for special education. So really pushing to make sure that the resources are there. Uh, we're pushing to have, uh, social, emotional learning, you know, more at the top understanding that school climate, uh, is critical that it's, it's, you know, we've got to redesign the school climate to be more, uh, focused on the whole child focuses. I said on social, emotional learning, and particularly as, uh, both teachers and students either continue to be in the virtual learning mode because of COVID or have begun, or are back in school, you know, what impact, uh, have has that change in, um, uh, climate or learning circumstance had on, on the child and, you know, for some, it may have been a traumatic time period for others, they may have thrived well, but in any case, uh, being able to get, again, the resources that people need increase the number of, um, therapists and support people, behavior folks, um, you know, in there to really make sure that, uh, everybody has the support that they need to be successful is another big area of concern for us. Um, we are, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 23:39

Do you think that, um, now that we have a new administration, um, uh, in DC, that we're, that that COPAS efforts are going to be, uh, uh, you know, faster moving than they, than they were under the prior administration? Or how do you see that?

Speaker 3: 23:59

Yes, I mean, I think I'm, we certainly are hopeful that we have now, especially someone in the executive branch who shares our, uh, goals and, uh, has immense experience both as a teacher, as well as an administrator and, and really working with the community, um, listening. Uh, I think he, you know, at least that's what we've heard from our colleagues in Connecticut, such as, um, seek the organization that you're, I know you're on the board of, and that does great work at the state level in Connecticut. Um, and so yes, we are encouraged by that. We are encouraged by having some of our champions such as Patty Murray in the Senate who is now going to be chairing the Senate health education labor committee. Um, so yeah, we, we hope that we're going to be able to, to move forward and, um, but also to STEM some of the backward, you know, movement that had been happening, um, or in the executive branch, for example, there just was nothing happening because, because the previous administration was so focused on, um, dismantling basically public school. So hopefully that rejuvenation of, of support for, and the need to infuse funding, um, into schools so that they can really support students the way they should be. It becomes, um, much more of the focus and priority.

Speaker 2: 25:42

Right, right. Now, you know, one question that I wanted to ask you is, you know, is, is, is now the time to be revisiting, um, you know, an Ida revision or what are you hearing on that?

Speaker 3: 25:59

No, um, we and our colleagues, uh, do not believe now is the time to do that. Um, we still think, in fact, I mean, the Ida, one of the things, the common term is should we reauthorized the Ida? And the fact is that Ida is permanently authorized. So we don't need to ever if we don't want, you know, if folks don't feel that need, uh, reauthorize, um, it is sometimes amended and it has not been amended since 2004, but at this point, you know, our folks, we know when the idea is implemented, as it's intended and the, both the procedural and the substinant areas of the Ida are put into place for students. So in other words, they actually get referred to, to special education and, and are found eligible. Um, and then, um, that the results of those valuations are used to develop their IEP and the team agrees and they get a good placement and good services, all the things that the Ida has envisioned that it really changes lives, and it makes a difference for students. And so our energies need to be on implementing and enforcing, um, the law and, uh, meaning each student where they're at, especially during this time of COVID, we've seen an, you know, a wild range of, of things that are happening or not happening for students. And so we really need to get back to a place where, you know, again, everyone's getting what they need, um, and focus on that. Um,

Speaker 2: 27:43

Right. Yeah, totally, totally agreed. So, so for, for the parents that, um, are thinking that, you know, with a new administration, we should, we should be looking at updating or changing a law. It's really more about enforcing what we have right now and getting additional funding for it or

Speaker 3: 28:01

Than any exactly. Yes.

Speaker 2: 28:03

Yeah. Um, now what, what have you been seeing, you know, cause you really kind of can, can look on a national level as to how States are rolling out remote and distance learning and supporting distance learning based IEP is, you know, some States are calling them interim IDPs. Um, what, what are you seeing? Are there any trends that you're seeing as far as, uh, distance learning programming across various States?

Speaker 3: 28:37

Well, one of the trends we saw right from the get go was an, uh, a misunderstanding about whether or not something like COVID affects the I E DEA and the rights, you know, where the IEP process and the, the basic fact is it does not. Um, there is nothing in the Ida that says schools don't have to follow the Ida or the steps of it. So for example, each year, uh, um, each student is to have a, an IEP where they look at how much progress has that student made. Have they, um, you know, do they meet new goals? What do they need another assessment to figure out, uh, why they may not be making progress, progress, et cetera. And from that, then, um, the team, the IEP team for that student makes a placement determination. Uh, you know, and, and then the student is placed in the program is implemented and then revised if it's needed. We heard, we have heard and continue to hear that some districts, you know, have made unilateral decisions about where students, you know, what kind of learning may, may have such as in North Carolina, they had made the determination that all students with disabilities would go back to school five days a week while everyone else remained virtual. Well, that's not following the, the law basically. Um, they really need to do an individualized look. Um, and then, you know, we've heard all across the range, there are districts that, uh, are back. Some of them have been back the entire school year in person, uh, allowing for students to opt out of coming in person and do it virtually if they, if they parents choose to do that. Um, we, there are other districts that, uh, have, uh, started off doing hybrid where they might go for Monday, Wednesday, you know, they split a class in two and they go Monday, Wednesday. And then when the other kid, the other half of the class goes to see Thursday and they rotate Fridays, um, there are other districts like in Maryland, they are completely still completely virtual. Um, so it's, it's really, really different everywhere. And we have also, because of that, we've heard all kinds of stories of both success and nightmare, uh, for students and families. Um, some have had the unintended benefit, um, or an, you know, people didn't realize would become a benefit. Um, so, you know, such as a student who started off school, two grades behind in reading, but because they split the class into two, you know, the hybrid model and two groups of nine, they, that student got intense services while they were in, in school with just a very small class of nine students. And they have now progressed and our on grade level in reading. Um, so we, you know, we we've heard stories like that. And then we've heard other stories where the student hasn't gone to school and, and has an access to reading, uh, has a, one-on-one usually, or has speech therapy and refuses to even look at the computer. Um, you know, and other other families who've had to take their child to the emergency room because of their behaviors and they aren't getting any kind of support from the school. So, uh, you know, I wish there were, it's kind mind boggling in some ways, because it is so, so widely variant from state to state that you, that you just have to ask, you know, if some, for example, if some States can be back to and providing in-person supports, and that doesn't always mean in the school, there are some States that are sending, um, for example, uh, uh, instructional support staff to homes or meeting in another location to provide the services they're, they're, you know, able to provide OTPT and then other States that haven't provided it at all, you really have to wonder why.

Speaker 2: 33:09

Right. Right. And, you know, even, even on the state level, um, you know, you mentioned, you mentioned seek of Connecticut where that I'm a, uh, a member of here in, in, in my nutmeg state. And, uh, even on the state level, it, it really is varying by district. There. Some districts are all remote. Other districts are all in person, some have a two day in-person cohort. Um, and it really is dependent on, on your zip code and the funding. Right. Um, right. So it's really, it's really running the gamut all across the country right now. Um, but you know, you brought up a really good point earlier in the show, and that is, uh, one of COPAS missions is to really, uh, you know, provide information to parents as well as to school districts about the social and emotional component of when kids are getting back into school. You know, we don't know what these kids have gone through at their home. Um, and in some cases it could be very traumatic and it could be where they've had a significant loss of learning. And so we need to be raising that awareness, uh, because if they're not academic ready, it's not going to work when we get, when we actually get back to some level of normalcy.

Speaker 3: 34:45

Right. And there is no, you know, there's no magic wand and there's no way to know in total, whether there's been loss of learning or not, but it is the responsibility of the school teams, um, to determine that and that, and to, to take into consideration any kind of data that families have. And we have been encouraging families to keep data, to, to take, you know, short videos on your phone, have information, you know, that you can share with the schools, one of the positive sides that we've seen. And again, not everywhere, but in, in many places, is that, that the barriers of communication between, um, families and teachers in a lot of cases have come down significantly so that they are able to speak, uh, you know, um, frequently. And they are able to share informations and, and learn more about, you know, what the student's doing. I mean, I I've heard so many that have said, I didn't know, you know, that he could, he, or she could do that. Um, or they could do that. And, uh, you know, and that's from the teacher and from the parents. So I think they've had a, uh, opportunity to learn and understand more about each other and to, to work together the way again, the way the law always intended, but, uh, for the student and when, even when we're talking, learning loss, that's become quite the buzzword these days. And, um, they, you know, you got to look at it, uh, student by student, because as I said, some students have actually excelled given the circumstances, some students have excelled online because they don't have to deal with all of the emotions and peer pressure and things that go on in school. Um, so every child is different. Um, but one of, one of the things that we do, uh, we've also been really working on is making sure that if families choose to keep their child home, that they continue to get the services and support they're entitled to under the Ida and that the student is still entitled to the same levels of FAPE, um, that they, it's not the same as bound or, you know, um, if you choose to withdraw your child from special education, for whatever reason, it's, you know, if it's the school's telling families that they need to say, no, I'm not withdrawing my child from special education, you know, I'm for his safety or for whatever reason, uh, opting for, uh, at home instruction. And I'm still entitled to everything that I was I and my child were entitled to, uh, are entitled to under the Ida.

Speaker 2: 37:47

Right, right, right. Yeah. I know that, um, here in Connecticut, uh, you know, we we've had some moderate success with, uh, what we're kind of referring to as a notice of partial unilateral placement, where, where, uh, if a district is unable, um, you know, to meet all of the needs of a remote learner, um, and some of these aren't even really litigious, it's just, you know, there are certain related services that cannot be delivered in the school building right now because of COVID and the parents in the district come to some form of an agreement informal or formal, or otherwise whereby a certain funding can go towards providing the student with a certain level of related services, either in a community setting or in the home that's funded by the district, but may be implemented by a private provider. Um, you know, um, and parents might not necessarily know that they can ask for that. Right.

Speaker 3: 38:59

Right. Yeah, no, that's a good point. And that's happening in a lot of places. Yeah. Yeah. And they, they, they do have the money to do that because they've received a lot of money from the federal government through the COVID, um, uh, relief packages. So, you know, they can, they have pots of money, they can allocate for these kinds of things. And that's, I think also important for families to know. Right,

Speaker 2: 39:27

Right. You know, you know, the other thing too is, uh, you know, parent training is, is a related service under the items. And for folks, for parents that are listening, you may even want to ask your local school district if they could fund your membership and, or attendance to the Copa conference this year, because it's so cost effective and it's remote, uh, they may very well provide the funding, uh, for, for that as well.

Speaker 3: 39:59

Well, absolutely thank you for, for, uh, saying that Jeff is, cause I think a lot, I know a lot of our attendees have done just that, where they write it into the IEP, um, because they want to learn more about their rights. And a lot of times, uh, families and advocates or attorneys bring information to the school teams that they didn't even know they could do. So, um, it, it can be a very valuable experience for the whole team.

Speaker 2: 40:32

Well, Denise, thank you really for taking the time to be on the podcast. I really think it's a great service for the parents that listen to this show, to know about Copa. Um, they should know about the album, but if they don't that you could really join right now on a very, uh, limited budget. Um, you're welcome to come. Uh, we're going to be having the conference, um, in early March, uh, when we get the dates here again, March, March 3rd through the seventh, is that right? Yes. Our third through the seventh. And listen, if you can't afford it, there are, uh, there are financial, um, discounts, um, and, and financial resources at COPAS, um, uh, on COPAS website that you can apply for, for financial aid, but also try to get your district to fund it and, and join us, join us for this conference. Uh, it's probably one of the best ones that you can attend all year and because of co because of COVID, it's remote right now. So you can really watch it at your leisure.

Speaker 3: 41:42

Right? Right. Absolutely. And if, if for some reason you can't do it this year, we're hoping to be in Boston in 2022. So we're going to be up in the Northeast in early March. So, uh, you know, we'll hope, you'll see, you will hope you see everyone both years, but, uh, just keep that in mind. Right?

Speaker 2: 42:03

Right. Well, Denise, thank you again for being on the show, copa.org folks, you have to go, you have to sign up, sign up for their newsletters, join a committee, get involved. Um, it's really going to make a difference in your child's, uh, education and programming and for your knowledge and, and for your peace of mind as well, just to be part of the Copa community. It's really second to none for, for parents. Um, so again, hang on the show and thank you everyone for listening. Stay tuned for another episode of let's talk sped law.