Let's Talk Sped Law

Season 2, Episode 2: Let's Talk Transition Planning During COVID with Guest Speaker Dr. Peter Gerhardt

November 18, 2020 Let's Talk Sped Law by Special Education Attorney, Jeffrey L. Forte, Esq. Season 2 Episode 2
Let's Talk Sped Law
Season 2, Episode 2: Let's Talk Transition Planning During COVID with Guest Speaker Dr. Peter Gerhardt
Show Notes Transcript


Dr. Peter Gerhardt
In this podcast we talk about transition planning during COVID with Dr. Gerhardt. Dr. Gerhardt is the Executive Director of EPIC School in Paramus, NJ. He has more than 30 years experience utilizing the principles of Applied Behavior Analysis in support of individuals with autism spectrum disorders in educational, employment, residential and community-based settings. Dr. Gerhardt is the author or the coauthor of many articles and book chapters on the needs of adolescents and adults with ASDs and has presented nationally and internationally on this topic. Dr. Gerhardt is the founding chair of the Scientific Council for the Organization for Autism Research (OAR) and currently sits on numerous professional advisory boards including Behavior Analysis in Practice, the Cambridge Center for Behavioral Studies, the Association of Professional Behavior Analysts, and the Autism Society of America.  He received his doctorate from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey, Graduate School of Education.


Speaker 1:

Welcome to the podcast. Let's talk sped law, a podcast dedicated to discussing special education rights of children with disabilities. I'm your host and special education attorney. Jeff forte. Now let's talk sped law,

Speaker 2:

Everyone, special education attorney Jeff forte. Welcome back to another episode of ledge talk sped law. In this episode, it is my privilege and honor to have dr. Peter Gerhard executive director of Epic school and Paramus New Jersey Epic school standing for educational partnership for instructing children. Dr.[inaudible] has over more than 30 years experience in utilizing the principles of applied behavior analysis to further support individuals that present on the autism spectrum in education employment, in residential and in community settings. And the title of this, uh, show is called let's talk, transition, transition, planning into adulthood for post-secondary opportunities in a COVID world. So it's a very timely and informative topic. Um, dr. Garrett Hart has published scores of literature, books, articles, chapters on the need for adolescent and adult support for children that are on the spectrum. He is presented nationally and internationally on this topic. He is one of the founding chairs of the scientific council for our organization for autism research. And he also has a book coming out in 2021, specifically about how to best help children to transition into adulthood that are on the spectrum. So let's jump right into this episode and thanks for listening. Hi everyone, attorney Jeff forte, and we are here with another episode of let's talk sped law. I'm so honored and humbled to have with us today. Um, uh, dr. Peter Gearhard, uh, he's the executive director at the, uh, Epic school educational partnership for instruction instructing children in New Jersey. Uh, dr. Gearhart's so nice to have you welcome on the show. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure and an honor to be part of your podcast. Thank you. You know, we're, we're, we're really growing. We're in all 50 States. Now with our podcast, we're getting a lot of comments that we basically give, uh, very complex information in a way that is easy for parents to understand. And today we have you as a special clinical guest on the show to talk about transition planning. So let's, let's talk about that. Talk about transition planning into adulthood and post-secondary opportunities for your child that is on an IEP in the apocalyptic COVID world that we're living in. Right. Um, first, how are you seeing transition planning, uh, changing and evolving because of the COVID virus right now?

Speaker 3:

Um, significantly at least the implementation, um, you know, we focus quite a bit of our programming on community-based instruction, starting at an early age. Like, you know, one of the things that we argue consistently is that preschool. I mean, I don't want it begins in preschool, but don't wait till you're 16 to start saying, Oh, now I have to transition plan. You know, you really shouldn't be transitioning planning from the age of four to say, where are we going at this? Um, but once we have the shut down, you know, all of those IEP goals that included shopping, working, um, crossing the street, community safety, um, going out to lunch, they had to stop. Um, we are still not back to most of them accept, uh, I have two students, so this is their last year of eligibility. So they're both back out working here and, you know, we check every day that the positivity rates in New Jersey to make sure that it's the relatively same thing. We have parental consent to go out and do this because there's some level of risk involved, I guess, by going out at these jobs. So it's changed everything about how we implement it. It's changed nothing about how we think about it. Um, but it has severely restricted the implementation and 90% of what we have in transition. It can't be gone via virtual instruction.

Speaker 2:

So, so let's talk about, um, let's, let's kind of baseline what the legal definition of transition planning is, right? So under the individuals with disabilities education act, there is a specific band-aid that transition, um, is to prepare your child for further education, further employment and independent living after high school and beginning under the first IEP, when your child turns 16. And again, it could be in States, they could provide it earlier than 16. Um, but under the federal Ida it's mandated when your child is, um, your first IEP to be in effect, when your child turns 16, the has to start to determine an IEP. That's going to include post-secondary goals and objectives that are measurable, that are supported and guided and informed by transition assessments, right. Um, and you know, all roads lead to adulthood. And, and because of COVID right now, we're having a real reset in what it means to actually prepare a child for further training education. And, uh, post-secondary, uh, um, you know, uh, independent living. So you kind of touched on some things right now, um, you know, first, you know, are, should we be even planning to have COVID awareness and COVID, uh, safety part of a transition plan?

Speaker 3:

Um, absolutely. You know, one of the things, um, we did and we have, uh, our learners tend to be, you know, DSM-V, you know, autism two and three. So there, um, also some significant cognitive challenges with there are some behavioral challenges. Every single one of our students wears a mask, um, for almost the entire day, like if they need a mass break, their teacher goes outside with them for a little bit, so they can take off their mask. But, um, if you had told me a year ago that I was going to have that as a, as a goal, all of my students were in surgery. I, what are you talking about? Like, okay, it's essential now. It is just a critical skill so that they could go shopping with mom and dad. They can go, you know, just be part of the family. Um, and I, I have to tell you I've been so impressed with all of our students and how well, um, they are handling their masks and my colleagues do, I talked to my colleagues and they've also been very impressed. I don't know why it's been so successful, but it has been very successful.

Speaker 2:

Right, right. So, so for, for, for kids that are in, let's say public school systems, um, that, that aren't getting the supports and the rigor and the clinical, um, support that your school in New Jersey provides, um, in Paramus, New Jersey Epic school, um, what I'm hearing is that mask wearing social distancing, um, COVID awareness should absolutely be a self-care and a social skill goal, and objective as a transition program in every child's IEP.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. And hand-washing in Washington by CDC rules, you know, not just put your hand on the water for three seconds, you know?

Speaker 2:

Right. And, you know, I'm sure you hear it, you know, a lot of get sent home by administrators, if the child's taking off their mask, when in fact, and you know, saying, well, it's the parents' problem, you know? And while obviously the virus is a very serious thing that we need to think about. It's actually on the schools to be implementing the plan, to have a child be appropriately wearing a mask or distancing that child in the school, if, if mask wearing is becoming a challenge.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's our responsibility, we're the educators, we're the ones who have theoretically the knowledge, ability, resources to teach this. I'm just throwing it off to parents is as an abandonment of responsibility. Right. Right.

Speaker 2:

So as an expert in, in transition planning, right. You know, oftentimes parents they're going to IEP meetings and they're not even aware that they can actually get a comprehensive transition evaluation done. Right. Uh, for the parents that are listening, it'll, it'll often go, the vernacular will often be something like, well, you know, we can conduct some informal evaluations and some informal tests to see what your son or daughter might be interested in doing after CA after high school. What, what is a formal, comprehensive transition assessment look like? You know, w what, what are the parts of it? What are the functions of it? Um, how can a parent be more fully informed to actually be requesting a transition evaluation, to more fully informed their child's IEP?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. There's, there's a lot of different aspects to it. And one of the things that I, I think is important for counts to also now, first of all, is a tr transition assessment should be different as a function of where you live. So at transition assessment in New York city, it should be very different from a transition assessment in rural Idaho. You know, there are different skill set it's related to adulthood that you're going to need to look at. So you have to keep that in mind at all times. Um, there are a couple of decent transition assessment instruments out there. There's, um, the T tap and there's the fish. Um, I like to do that, uh, adaptive behavior assessment, just to get an overall sense of where the person is. Um, it's, it's very helpful for me to know that, but excuse me. But then the, like the Vineland is not sensitive enough to show a lot of change. So it doesn't change much overnight when you put the entirety of human existence into 13 steps, it's kind of hard sometimes to jump across steps. Um, but then we also recommend, um, doing some InVivo stuff, uh, getting out there and giving kids opportunity to try things. I think if you asked most typical kids at 16, what do you want to do with your life? They would say, I don't know. Yeah. Or they may have some, I want to be, I want to be a rap star. I want to be like, you know, but they have the ability to know what's out there just by seeing it and seeing other people like the people, to people with autism, aren't really good at visualizing things they've never experienced. So the paper and pencil assessments that say, do you like, do you want to work in a place like this? Do you want to work in a place like this? I don't think providers with a whole lot of useful information until we go out and confirm that what he or she said is accurate.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right. You know, it's it, it's, this is such a key takeaway because oftentimes you'll see a goal and objective, that'll say something like, you know, Johnny will identify two interests to pursue after high school. And that's the whole goal for the entire year. And you can do that in like two seconds. Right. Um, so what you're talking about with both formal assessments, like the apples and, um, the adaptive behavior assessment and, um, the, the, uh, the assessment of basic, uh, language and learning and the violin, those are all great. But you actually have to put the child in the context, in the community setting of which they're going to, uh, you know, live after they've finished their IEP tenure through the Ida.

Speaker 3:

Right. Right. I would add by the way, essentials for living to that assessment battery, it's a, it's a great instrument, a little complex, but a great instrument. Yeah. Um, but yeah, you have to keep asking yourself, like, are they going to do this after they graduate? Yeah. And if the answer is no, why are you still working on it? Like, think of the things that they're going to need to do after they graduate and focus on those skills. Right. That's, that's the goal so that they can access further education, they can access further employment, they can access all of these things. Um, that's why we focus so much on the community.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right. And the community

Speaker 3:

Graduate, they're never going to be in this classroom again. Right.

Speaker 2:

The community setting is so key. I mean, and what community setting may be for one child, it's different from what a community setting, maybe for another, um, you know, um, we often use the words interchangeably, but is there a difference between life skills, life, life, skill, and objectives versus adaptive skill, goals, and objectives? Are, are there differences and, and should parents be aware of what those differences are?

Speaker 3:

Um, yeah, there are differences. Um, you know, um, I decided, I guess like two years ago, like I dropped the term functional skills out of my repertoire. Um, primarily because most of them aren't functional and it just describes an aspect of a skill, not whether or not somebody uses it. Um, we instead use applied skills, like, is this a skill that the person actually uses? And most of them, many of them cross over into what were labeled functional skills that were ADA's activities of daily living, or, you know, whatever you want to call it. Um, but these are, are those things that give you the most bang for your buck? Um, there, um, I can not remember her name right now. She wrote the happiness project. Um, I can say whatever you do most frequently, that's what matters most. So, you know, one of the really important skills I have is I know how to make coffee in the morning. Right. Right. You know, now is it a little thing? What, yeah, but does it give me a better start to the day? Absolutely. Um, we talk about extensively. We talk about such things as dressing, bathing, toileting as safety skills, because if you're independent, all the skills, no papers and ever has to be in that room with you again, for the rest of your life. And 99.9, 9% are paid. People in this field are great, but if you want to program, rate your programming for that zero, zero one, you know, they're not white snows, their safety skills really. Right. So, and then when you think of them that when they take on a whole new urgency for why you have to do this correctly.

Speaker 2:

So, so when we're talking about functional skills, um, uh, you know, such as self, you know, self care, you know, bathing, eating, dressing, toileting, uh, grooming hygiene. And have you ever, have you ever had parents come to you? And they say, well, our school team said, because those are academic, uh, uh, goals and objectives that we're not, we're not obligated to train your or teacher child, that there must be problems in the home if they don't know how to do those things. Have you ever experienced that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Excuse me. Not, not recently, but like I work right now. I kind of a rarefied environment. I have a, I guess there's a little school. Um, and plus quite honestly, people know me, like I get to be Peter Gerhart. Right. They know what the focus is, so they often don't fight as much as they would with else. They just go, okay. So, but it's, it's still out there that this headset, that's what I was possibility. Yeah. Um, and then when they do decide to teach it, they teach it like once a week. So they work on combing hair once a week, which in a typical school that gives you 40 trials of combing hair, which means you never really want to become your hair. You know, it just doesn't work out for any skill we needed sufficient practice to acquire it. I don't care what the skill is or whether you're typical or not typical.

Speaker 2:

Right. You know, I was at a, I was at an IEP meeting here in Connecticut, um, while this was before COVID. So I was there doing a student observation, uh, about a year ago for a child on the spectrum. That was non-verbal. And one of the goals and objectives for transition was learning a vocational skill. And I go to it, it was silent. It did not specifically state with the vocational skill was, and I go in and the child for a couple hours was simply given a stack of paper to shred. And that shredding was the vocational skill. Um, you know, it's, it's egregious to me that just having a child be shredding paper, satisfied this child's goals and objectives for transition planning, but for Vida to go and observe what the transition goal was. Right?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. No, it's really common. And oftentimes the things that we define as vocational goals have really no relationship to what they were doing a job anyway. And they ended up being more busy work than not now having said that, like we do have some stuff that I think to the casual observer look like busy work, but they're not because we're looking at endurance and rate, like we want here, she'd be able to work for an hour and 45 minutes straight and produce at a rate that is acceptable to employers, right? Those are the skills that are in our IEP is not that they will assemble 40 widgets. You know, it's, we'll be engaged in this task for an hour or 45 minutes. Um, and during that time produce an acceptable number or a commensurate number, number to what a typical worker would do.

Speaker 2:

Right. And, you know, you bring up a good point there doc, because what often will happen is a child's transition goals and objectives will be met and satisfied within the, you know, within the public school setting. But then if you go and actually have the student do it in a different setting, it's not generalizing, but the goal and the, the, the, the skill set isn't generalizing. So the muscle memory and the routine is being able to be implemented across multiple domains. And, and, and, you know, that's where, that's where you and your school come in. It sounds like much more than what a public school is going to do.

Speaker 3:

Oh yeah, absolutely. Um, and you know, I go to places and, um, um, you know, and I, they have like a beautiful set up, it looks like, you know, they have, like, we have like a little seven 11 and everything, and they have like, and I keep saying, why don't you just go to a seven 11, like, like you have to have like this one here. And, you know, we know, you know, most kids aren't going to stand up to them. Don't generalize. Well, it's like, we knew that going back to 1976, you know, it's another new thing. Right. So I learned early on like, teach her the skills, most likely to be displayed and even simple things like, uh, for years I against teaching coins and dollars. If it's taken you a long time and just go right to a debit card, having them pay, you know, cause purchasing is the, is the use of money. So just get the payment going thing. Now we're on to Apple pay. Now we're onto, you know, there are three different point of sale systems. One, you don't need to put your pin in. Why don't you do it and supposed to teach all of those right combinations, which I can't teach sitting at a desk across from the students. Right. You bring that in the real world,

Speaker 2:

You bring up such a great point, right? Like why reinvent the wheel, right. Why, why try to replicate the world in a, in a shell when in fact we should be going out into the community with transition programs to actually really do it in, in the, in the setting in which the students going to be entering into it's exactly right.

Speaker 3:

I mean, that's the, that's the goal. So, and also by doing that, you're educating the community, you know, the community gets to meet your students and they get to know them by name. And so when they come into that Starbucks again, they know who they are, you know, and it's one of our major transition poles is that the community knows our students by names, not as that student with autism at the Epic school. Right. You know, I want them to know Tommy. I want them to know Brian. I want them like, that's the cause that's when they're part of the community.

Speaker 2:

Right. You know, it, it really underscores the, the, uh, the statement, you know, it takes a village, right. And, and, and, you know, you just, you give such great insight, you know, our parents that you want the, the community to be accepting and aware and acknowledging the student just as much as the student needs to go into the community as well. And, um, w when you have that dual dynamicness where it's both community awareness and student awareness with transitioning, um, it, it really means something really does.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is the last major barrier. And the inclusion of people with neurological challenges is the difficult community is educating your typical community. Like, you know, yes, he has autism, but you know what, he's a really cool kid and he's got a great sense of humor and he can send cat Stevens songs. And like all of these positive traits that all of my students have, all, everybody who has ever met has, you know, to get them to see that aspect so that they can talk to them. Like, I know so many cashiers who always think that they should talk to mom and dad and not to the autism or talk to the teacher. And we're always like, he's buying it. I'm not buying it, talk to him. And once I give him permission to do that, cause they think they can't, they don't, you know, it it's a specialized statements. So right now, all of a sudden we go in and I catch her, waving us over. Cause she's open. Cause she wants to see Tommy. Right. And that's how it works.

Speaker 2:

You know, you, you, so you have over 30 years experience and applying ABA support to individuals on the spectrum in multiple domains, education, employment, residential community-based I have practically all your books on my desk. Right. I mean, so, so when you go to an IEP meeting and you're talking transition planning, I mean, you command the presence of the team. No doubt. Um, but for the parents that don't have that, that weight. Right. Um, especially now during COVID what, what are some, you know, like w what are the top three to five items that are, you know, non-negotiables that we should be advocating and informing parents about in, um, in the world we live in as far as transition planning goes,

Speaker 3:

Huh? That's a great question. Um, what is what I already said? I think that the whole independence in terms of bathroom and all that sort of stuff, there's a safety skills, you know, but also generalize it across different bathrooms, not just that one bathroom in your classroom though. I have a unity in to use the bathroom at McDonald's, but I'm apparently learned to use the bathroom at target. Like that's what it's supposed to be. Um, I think we have signs all over our building. Um, I'd say independence is more important than perfection, you know, and as a behavior analyst, I think sometimes we get stuck on the fact that he said 87.8% accuracy on this step. So once it gets to 90%, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, it doesn't matter. Like, just like, you know, what if he does his laundry and one time only puts it in one type pod, instead of two, he's still think his laundry, you know, but we focused so much, it has to be a hundred percent every time. So independence is more important, um, than anything else. I think every kid should learn how to use a smartphone. I think it's the greatest safety device that exists right now. Um, and I don't care if[inaudible], I don't care if the individual's non verbal, there are plenty of ways you can communicate with a smartphone. So that should be, um, in terms of employment-related, um, it's this endurance and rape, but also the social, the little social things, what we call the soft skills, you know, greeting someone, um, you know, we, we spent years teaching kids to shake hands and how they can't shake hands. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But even like, if you, if you have somebody who's non vocal and an employer says, hide woman, all they have to do is just turn their head and they've completed the interaction and the employer feels really good, you know, um, if, if they don't have that skill. So there's a lot of little things that I think get included. Um, and I think the last one, um, is gotta be self-advocacy. Um, and whatever way the individual communicates, how do they tell me what they want? How do they tell me what they need? How many, tell me what they don't need it, um, that's the, at the heart of everything I think is that being able to do that, um, and you know, part of South Africa is also accepted now, like you have to, there are times where, you know, it can't be done. Um, but, and every student that I've ever worked with, I don't care whether they're on the spectrum can act, okay. You know, that student who has a history of aggression who keeps punching me is telling me why don't you understand this? I've punched you 90 times now when you solve and figure it out, what is your problem? Right. Yeah. That's advocacy. I just have to switch it into another form of communication. What, what

Speaker 2:

Are you seeing right now, given the state that we're in with COVID with employment opportunities, with vocational, uh, opportunities within the w within communities. I mean, how, how are we getting our students to an employability aspect? Um, given, given where we are right now with, with the virus,

Speaker 3:

You know, that the employee ability part is, is I think low right now, it's, it's not accessible from in most cases. Um, but it will be again, I think I know about that. That will come back once there's a vaccine and this is much worse to control. Uh, employment is going to be a different thing though, because we have so many Americans right now who are unemployed, um, and unfortunately that us in a competition, and there are still people out there who look at well, this person has autism, this person, doesn't, I'm going to give it to the person who doesn't cause the person with autism, it's social security, you're NASA support person. And I'm not saying it's good or bad, but that's what we're going against. Plus in States where they've now raised the minimum wage to$15 and many States have taken away our ability to, um, pay sub minimum wage. And there's a good reason to do that, but I used to be able to talk to an employer and say, you know what,$15 minimum wage, but he works at two thirds. The rate of your typical worker, you now pay him$10 an hour. You're getting the same bang for your buck. He's getting paid. So I think the$15 minimum wage, although I think it's very good for America, but for the economy, it's going to make our jobs tougher in the long run.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right. So, so it's, it's, it's, it's not that positive a news right now that, you know, number one, we're not getting, um, we're not getting our, our kids employed right away because, because of shutdowns. Um, and, and when we do actually get somewhat back to normalcy a little bit, there's going to be this, this more of a competitive landscape because of the unemployment rate right now. Boy, that's that that's challenging. That's tough.

Speaker 3:

It is tough. But I also think, and for parents and professionals alike, um, we need to start focusing on skills and abilities and positives of the kids and the young adults that we work with. Um, you know, we, and I, and I understand that I was brought up in the field, you know, a long time ago. And, um, IEP is, are sort of deficit models. You know, like they don't have this skill, so we need to teach this skill. Um, but you know, typical people don't have that, that to deal with. Nobody ever says like Peter Garrett, he's a good guy, but he can't speak Russian. And nobody ever talks about what I can't do. Right. They don't talk about what I can do, but if you have autism, there's always this point of like, well, you know, he really can't do this. Or he doesn't like that. I mean, tell me what he can do. Tell me what he likes, you know, let's, let's build upon that. Um, and then we have to build better connections with the community. We have to build better connections with employers. Um, one of the nice things about, you know, Connecticut and New Jersey and New York is that most people here know autism. So if my staff are Atlas with a student and he is a little bit upset, people don't care, they just go, Oh, maybe he has autism. And they walk by, you know, it's not like it was 20 years ago where people would stop and stare and see what was going on. And, and, you know, it's become much more accepting environment, which is phenomenal. And that's, I think one of the places that as a country, we need to get to. Absolutely. Yeah. Especially for people, um, you know, there's the, the Americans with disability act has been great for people who have physical disabilities, physical challenges. Hasn't done much for people who have neurological challenges. That's the next big frontier. Right, right. But I would also tell all of your podcasts listeners to see the movie Crip camp, if they haven't,

Speaker 2:

What's that movie Crip camp, Crip camp. Okay.

Speaker 3:

Watch that. It's on Netflix. Awesome. It's about the development of the disability rights movement in America. Oh,

Speaker 2:

Wonderful. Wonderful. Yeah, it's a must-see um, yeah. You know, I had another question for you and it's something that, um, you know, w well, we know each other through, through my wife's salon de forte, who's a, who's a fellow BCPA. And, um, you know, she's often presented to, um, first responders to police departments, to fire departments, to firemen about how to pick up on, um, situations where they may potentially be called. Um, and the person that is either being called about or involved in is, is someone that is on the spectrum and how important it is to have skills around how to deal with, you know, the, the, the police department and first responders, but also for those, uh, those town and municipal agencies to also be educated on deescalating rather than escalating an issue. Um, and how, how, how have you, you know, during your experience, how, how do you teach those, those skill sets and, um, you know, present to present to police departments, present, uh, fire departments on how to handle issues involving a child that's on the spectrum?

Speaker 3:

Well, um, I'll tell you one thing we're, we're doing, it's paused right now, again, because of COVID. Um, but we have a next for autism grant and we're working with Englewood hospital in New Jersey with their AMS department, um, to do a training video curriculum online, um, for EMPS. Um, and the script is written by somebody on the spectrum. Uh, everybody who's in, it is on the spectrum. You know, it's not, it's not some professional standing there and telling you X, Y, and Z, you know, it's from, from their point of view, um, it, it goes across the spectrum so that there are individuals who have, um, significant challenges and that individual has a college degree, but he's still on the spectrum. Um, so we talk about all of those things. Um, every, um, police offer officer, um, EMT, physician, you name it that I've met, wants to learn, they want to do, right? Yeah. You know, they totally a crave that information. Um, you know, we work with our parents to, we call them positive police profiles. Um, so you, you write up like a, just a one-page sheet about your son or your daughter with like their name, their address, their phone number, positive stuff about them, what they like, you know, now if there's some specific things that do tick them off, you can put that in there, and then you bring it down to your local police station and you make sure that everybody there gets a copy and you can even like go to a roll call and like do a little bit of a training, brilliant everybody. But then we say, you got to go back every year. Right. Because there's gonna be new officers. Yeah. People forget, if you haven't run into your son over the course of a year, they're going to forget, um, there's a new picture of your son that you want to include it on that now. So they will recognize him. Um, eventually you should bring your son in so they can actually meet him. Right. You know, cause it's, again, it's that that's gonna make the difference, um,

Speaker 2:

Positive police profile such. Great. And it goes to what you were just saying earlier in the show, getting to know the community in which your child will be part of and, and getting them, you know, interwoven into the cloth of the community is such a key takeaway. It's, it's so helpful for our listeners doctor. It really is.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. No, I think, I think that's the bottom line of transition planning. Yeah. So when we want them to be an integrated part of his or her community.

Speaker 2:

Right, right. Um, well, so what, what would you say because we're in COVID right now? Um, and there aren't the opportunities that we had pre COVID, um, how should we be adapting our, our kids? How should we be pivoting? And obviously we, you know, six feet distance, non handshaking, you know, washing hands, all that. But for employee stability purposes, for actual, um, you know, practical, um, uh, rollouts of, of programs, what should families be thinking about now, uh, to get their child employment, ready to get their child vocational ready? Because we have all these roadblocks right now because of the virus.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Well, you know, you were talking about like public schools. One of the things that I've always liked about public schools is there are often a lot of job opportunities right. In the building. Um, you don't have to walk all that far. So you were talking about the individual who shredded paper, well then have them go down to the office and actually shred paper. That's supposed to be shredded, not just make work stuff and have it be part of that environment every day for a half an hour or whatever it is. Right. Um, look around for those opportunities, um, for the individual to actually have, um, an actual work experience, not just some like a job training component, cause public, those have a lot of those to offer. Um, and they usually, you know, their, their, their educators or their administrators, like they all, they want to do good stuff. Right. You know, sometimes the systems don't allow us, but by and large, we all want to do that stuff. Um, look at stuff like this, I increase endurance and increase rates. Um, do well, find out what he or she likes, you know, like spend some time, you know, we don't Danny Reed. Who's one of my heroes and has become a friend and he's published seven articles with happiness as an outcome variable. Um, and I always ask that I do talks like how many people here today, everyone, an IEP goal with happiness as an outcome variable and it's zero. Right. You know, and we can do this know we can actually like help figure out what makes him happy and then incorporate that in his or her, like, you know, and we all have perky stuff that makes us happy. So I'm really not worried of what makes them happy is something that's a little atypical or a little quirky as long as it really makes them happy. Right. Right. You know, then that's something that I think they should all be looking at now, especially now when everybody's so stressed, when everybody's so isolated, you know, we found out that one of our old students at, when I was back at Rutgers lumped, old movie musicals on, in the background, like he was so happy and flee carousel was, but he didn't turn around and watch it. He just wanted it on, in the background. Right. But a movie that wasn't a musical didn't work.

Speaker 2:

So what, what you're really talking about is, uh, often referred to as, you know, person center planning, right? Yes. Person center planning where you're, you're, you're focusing on the individual student and bringing all the stakeholders together to focus on that student's personal vision for what they want to do in the future. And you know, it kinda, you know, I mean, I'm probably a bit jaded obviously, cause I kind of see all the bad examples, you know, in my practice. But, um, it really is a significant journey to, to figure out person centered planning. And we're not talking about, you know, like, you know, guardian ad litem, um, you know, you know, trust holder estate type of work. We're actually talking about how do we make this person focused and participants into the community setting so they can start to take some control over their, their life as a productive member within the community. Right.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. You know, I often talk about, um, just how tough it really must be to be a person on the spectrum in school. Because every time you master, how you Pico, we give you another freaking goal and you rarely then get to really use the skills that we just talked to you. It just goes into this maintenance list and we'll say, it's mastered. So it's this never ending, like find those things that actually, when master become part of his repertoire or become part of her repertoire, like those are the things that matter most in life now. Yes. There are things that we really should teach that may not bring a whole lot of joy. Like I don't think wiping after a bowel movement brings a whole lot of joy to people's lives, but it's a critical skill. Right. Um, so not everything fits into that puzzle, but at the same time we want him to feel him and he want he, or she to feel competent in their life that they can do this. Not every time they do something wrong to get corrected. That would drive me crazy if I was a yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, um, you know, you have, you've authored so many books and articles over the last 30 years. Um, you know, like I said, many of them are on my bookshelf. Do you have, to the extent you can share, do you have any new books coming out anytime soon that, that we should be aware about or articles?

Speaker 3:

Um, I have, uh, an edited book that's coming out probably late 20, 21. That's on, um, programming for quality of life, for individuals with autism spectrum disorders, um, Springer, um, we have lined up 27 different authors have different areas of expertise to write about, um, what the research says and how to do this in a very practical bag. You know, cause there's often this difference between research because you do research in a way to get published and what we do day to day in the classroom and in the community. So I'm very excited to be part of that.

Speaker 2:

That that is, Oh, I I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to get a pre-order copy of that. Just, can you name the title again of the book for us?

Speaker 3:

Um, autism adults with autism spectrum disorders and quality of life.

Speaker 2:

Great. And that's, that's coming out, uh, and just a couple of months, cause we're good. We're end of next year, end of next year. Okay, great. Great. Well, dr. Gearhart, thank you so much for being on the show. It's it's my honor to have you on, um, we can talk so much more about transition planning for, for children on the spectrum. Um, I feel like we, we, we, we have just, you know, kind of just started the conversation on this, on this podcast and we're going to have to absolutely have your back on the show. Um, perhaps when your book is ready or even beforehand, when we kind of get, and we turn the tide and w with, with the virus and we now are in a position more to, to have our students, um, B be going out into the workforce again. So that would be great. I would love to do it, but you have to start calling me Peter. That's all I will. Absolutely. Peter. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you to our listeners.

Speaker 1:

Let's talk sped law. Be sure to follow us on Facebook as we have new episodes coming out every week. Thank you so much.